[matthew41]

Hello all,

Sorry to be the barer of bad news, but the Harry Benjamin Syndrome SOC are not what they appear to be. They were not written by any recognized medical association nor adopted by any in the last year. Charlotte Goiar, a self proclaimed expert, is the authur and its prime avocate. She has failed to include a clear disclaimer in the HBS sites attesting to it being a lay persons work proposing a new standard of care. I took it as being genuine after reading it the first time. It took some digging to find clues to the truth. Laura gave me the go ahead to start clearing up the confusion. The undo harm perpitrated on all of us will end soon with all our help.
Matt

[Laura]

Thanks Mathew :) .

When I first wrote my HBS Site I was elated to find something that seemed to fit me. I was led to believe that it was widespread and endorsed by the Medical Community. It is not. Currently Transsexual Health providers subscribe to the HBIGDA version 6 Standards of Care http://www.wpath.org...ents2/socv6.pdf . Please note that at the top of the document members of the Committee are listed prominently and all have Professional Credentials. The HBS Standards of Care have no such credentials attached to it. The document is also not objective. The authors seem more focused on denigrating Transgender, Crossdressers and Transgendersists then on the diagnosis of those with HBS. Further some members of my site have gone to The HBS group to ask simple questions seeking only information. They were immediately pounced on and diagnosed that they did not have HBS. that's very strange since I was under the impression that only a Doctor or therapist could diagnose it. I also had an HBS therapist list. Over 50 therapists asked to be removed from that list but are still on our gender Therapist list on Laura's Playground. They had no complaints with the HBS theory which is based on Transsexual research but hey did have a problem that HBS was urging open discrimination against the Transgendered and anyone who was not like them. As a Transsexual I agree that there are big differences between the various Transgender groups but no one should be put down for belonging to one group or another. Laura's playground supports all TG, CD, TS, HBS, INtersex and androgynous people and their families or partners here. No one will be turned away.

I still believe in the HBS theory because it is based on Transsexual research that many professionals have signed their names to. I intend to either do a major rewrite of Laura's HBS site http://harrybenjamin....com/index.html or take it down. I don't know which yet. HBS does have potential so I don't think it should be dismissed. The documents need to be objective, less denigrating of others and have prominent signatures from members of the Medical Community. Right now it is more about anti-transgender than pro HBS. They are separate groups who don't have to put each other down to prove their case. If anyone is offended by this post it is not my intention but the facts need to be known.

This is going to be a hot topic. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me. Debate is a good thing and can often lead to something better when the dust settles. However there are rules to follow here. There is no name calling or referring to other groups with nasty names. We are after all a Transgender site as well as supporting other groups. Agree to disagree. Believe it or not you CAN disagree and still be respectful of others. For three years Transgender and Transsexual have gotten along here. Gender wars will not be tolerated here. There are enough people fighting us without us fighting each other. If the topic gets out of hand and becomes a free for all the forum will become moderated which means your posts will have to be approved by a moderator. No one wants that.

Thanks Mathew for a great post. Never be afraid to speak up here.
B)
Laura

[MaryEllen]

Irregardless of whether HBS is official or unofficial, I know in my own heart and mind that I am a female who, unfortunately was born with a male body. The HBS theory is a sound theory. Unfortunately it is for the moment, bogged down in a sea of controversy and until all these factions get their act together, HBS will go no where.

MaryEllen

[pennyjane]

seems like we have a core group here who can advance the idea of HBS without demeaning others or trying to make ourselves feel superior. God made us each in HIS image, not each other's. i will do whatever i can to make this work, i promise to love all my fellow beings, wherever they may be on their journey and without regard for gender or gender expression. i will not use anyone for my own purposes. i will speak to no one i am not trying to help or share with and i will always be respectful and compassionate. i will not diagnose others with hbs, or as non hbs. i will only try to help them seek the truth, not my truth, the truth. i will never try to dispell hope, but to encourage it, to raise it high and share all i have with others. God bless us all, with much love and hope, pj

[NickSister]

It is a shame such a piece of work can become so promenant without good peer review.

I agree, at least in principle, to the theory that 'it' is physiological. But I always find it distataseful being called someone that has a 'condition', a 'disorder', a 'problem', a 'syndrome' or a 'disability'. It just sounds so negative, and they are all things you have instead of something that you are. Sure, I have issues in that my body does not match what my heart tells me, but I think the real problem is everyone else. If it wasn't for everyone else I would not have a problem. Create treatments for my issues, don't create treatments for who I am...

[pennyjane]

NickSister, on Jul 9 2007, 10:33 PM, said:

It is a shame such a piece of work can become so promenant without good peer review.

I agree, at least in principle, to the theory that 'it' is physiological. But I always find it distataseful being called someone that has a 'condition', a 'disorder', a 'problem', a 'syndrome' or a 'disability'. It just sounds so negative, and they are all things you have instead of something that you are. Sure, I have issues in that my body does not match what my heart tells me, but I think the real problem is everyone else. If it wasn't for everyone else I would not have a problem. Create treatments for my issues, don't create treatments for who I am...

hi nick. i guess i have to disagree a bit. whatever anyone else thought about it, the incongruence would still be a pretty big problem for me. one i think i would need to treat medically if possible. i understand what you are saying, i don't think there is anything wrong with my head, but my body was born out of sync with my brain. before grs i could not perform sexually in a manner that was satisfying to me and i was dysphoric about my genitals. now, the dysphoria is euphoria. haven't got the sex thing worked out yet, but at least now i have the potential for a happy and healthy sex life. i think it is possible for one to have hbs and not feel the need to become congruent, so i guess in that case, no treatment would be needed, but i wonder if that would really do away with the syndrome. sure is something to think about though. lotsa love and hope, pj

[Laura]

It was discussed on my HBS site but membership was restricted to members who felt they had HBS. Perhaps that was the problem, there were no dissenters that spoke up publicly even though I asked them to. Privately though, through emails some agreed with your views and were against calling it a syndrome for the reasons you mentioned http://harrybenjamin...bs_opinions.htm . Since Transsexual research done by Harry Benjamin and others show it to be a physiological medical issue that occurs in the womb, it has to be called something. Any other suggestions? The more opinions the better. You are right though that the problem is often how others view us.
:lol:
Laura

[pennyjane]

you know, thinking about this is interesting. nick makes a point, and laura kind of reinforces it. between the two i think i got got a glimpse of something i've missed. incongurence has always been a major problem for me. as i said, regardless of what anyone else thought, i always felt my basic problem was my mind and body being out of sync. with that so deeply embedded in me i have never been able to get my little brain wrapped around how the incongruence wouldn't be the basic problem for us all. that the societal issues, as loaded as they are, would always be secondary.

now it occurrs to me that brain and anatomical incongruence doesn't necessarily harbor the same dysphoria in everyone as it does in me. it now makes sense that one can be completely of female brain sex and yet develop some indifference, or even alot of indifference to their anatomical state. so, for these folks, nick possibly being one, incongruence wouldn't push the same buttons as it does in me. perhaps just the opposite is true, nick feels the social pressures are really more of a problem, because that's what keeps her/him from expressing freely what is inside. the genitalia being out of sync is the secondary issue. i don't know, but i think a light bulb just got turned on in this little blonde head of mine, perhaps it will yet shine on something. thanks nick, and laura...lotsa love and hope, pj

[NickSister]

I definitely think that people have varying levels of dysphoria. The dysphoria a cross-dresser feels is likely to be different than what I feel which is in turn probably less intense than pj's or at least has a different focus. I think Mani had a good idea with his transsexual vs transgendered definitions where the transsexual was more of an absolute (represented by PJ), while I am still mtf but my ultimate gender is a bit more fluid and does not fit perfectly in the female sphere. I guess my brain sex is likely to be not completely female. I think I am better represented as a transgenderist that lives as a woman but has little desire to change their genitals. For me my dysphoria seems to be focused on having the right curves, having a female form. But if I could be treated as a woman, dress as a woman, my physical incongruities probably would not matter so much. Maybe this is one of the differences between what that test calls a class 5 transsexual vs class 4 late onset transsexual.

Maybe a good way to define the transgendered is by the intensity of their dysphoria and the focus of that dysphoria?

In terms of the whole treatment thing I guess my point of view is that I want to be treated for my 'symptoms' not for what I am e.g. instead of treating me because I am transgendered I want my dysphoria to be treated..while what I am creates problematic symptoms I don't think of it itself as a problem. Being transgendered is not a problem to me, I would not be anything else, it is simply part of who I am. But I do struggle with the symptoms of having a mind and body that don't match. In the end you are not treating the 'problem' anyway - simply the symptoms of it.

How to call it I don't know. I think transsexual works well as an adjective. You can say "I am a transsexual person/child/male/famale". It is not something you have, but something you are. It is also a noun - hence you can be a transsexual. I think it is still a good name - I don't know who decided it can't still be used. For some reason it seems it was decided that because the word has been used to describe a psychological condition it can't be re-branded. I say just redefine the term.

HBS is something people have and is not an adjective. i.e. I have HBS. You can't be a syndrome, you can't be a HBS person. Transexual and HBS are not interchangable terms.

Although now that I think about it there is no reason why like in PJs case she can say I am a woman that has HBS. That works for her. But in my case I can't say that as I don't think I am exactly a woman. Though I could say I am a person that has HBS. Maybe my whole argument is invalid, I'm starting to go in circles :P Maybe my objection is that in using the term HBS is that it robs me of an adjective that I can use to describe myself. By using it it creates a hole in our language.

[pennyjane]

hi nick. i'm so glad we are having this conversation. i think it is enlightening, i hope some others are following it, and choose to pop in with some ideas of their own. i have to say that i think you bring up exactly why there is a need for the new term hbs. i think you have a clear insight in to who you are and, like most of us, are a lttle fuzzy about the language. of itself, the language doesn't matter, any word would do. it's the words though that can help us understand and commicate ourselves better. i think it's wonderful to be engaged in a conversation where the words are being discussed without judgement, and not just a little refreshing i might add.

i think that describing you as a transgenderist or a transsexual is fitting. i think that comes from the fluidity you suggest in your gender identity. that also defines why we need another term to describe those of us without the fluidity. i desribe myself as one who has a fixed address on the gender spectrum. i wake up in the same place every morning that i went to bed at the night before and i remain there all day. i have no interest in even exploring other places, i'm perfectly comfortable where i am. thus, i don't think it is accurate to call myself transsexual. i don't see myself as trans anything, i'm stable in the same place i was born and do not question my gender. i think that a lot of places in this discussion can be measured by degree, and some say there are no absolutes, perhaps that's true, but i don't feel any pull in me away from my essential femininity. i don't think i really went through any places on my way to here, i think i was born here. that i once refered to myself as transsexual, or as transgendered, doesn't mean i was, it only means i knew no better word. truely, i was never comfortable, or even understanding of any term i used to describe until i met up with hbs. that defines me perfectly. by needing it to exclude all other diagnosis' isn't a judgement, a "i'm better then you" thing, it's just a matter of clearification. it's a specific place, the place for me.
i hope we can keep hbs to describe this very specific condition. to not convelude it in an effort to not be exclusive. we can be different and equal, we can be different and love and respect one another. the language is important, without meaning the words may as well die on the vine, they are of no help.

so, thanks for your feelings, i'm glad to meet one such as you, with a strong sense of self and awareness of the need for communication without judgement. lotsa love and hope. pj

[Conrí]

pennyjane, on Jul 11 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

i hope we can keep hbs to describe this very specific condition. to not convelude it in an effort to not be exclusive. we can be different and equal, we can be different and love and respect one another. the language is important, without meaning the words may as well die on the vine, they are of no help.

I completely agree. HBS should not be changed to make it more inclusive. Look at the term transgender for example: The original intent of the term was for trans people who did not want to have SRS. Today there is much confusion because it has become an umbrella term for the whole community (i.e. including transsexuals as transgender), but people still identify as transgender in the original sense and in other senses. When I tell people that I just identify as transgender and not transsexual, or when I ask someone if they are transgender or transsexual, many of them become confused. And then I have to give them multiple definitions.

If a word describes someone it should not change so that more people are described/included.

~Mani

[Laura]

Labels although we may not like them are often necessary. When talking about Crossdresser, Transgenderist and Transsexual groups the motivations and treatments for each are very, very different. Of the three only the Transsexual or HBS person has a physiological inborn condition that develops in the womb before birth. one is simply born with the opposite brain sex of their body sex. The age it manifests itself is also different. Transsexual children often display cross-sex behavior insisting that they are the opposite gender before their first memories at the age of 4 or 5 and is their first remembered thought. Don't confuse that with being dressed up or dressing up which is just changing clothes, not insisting you are the opposite sex. That's a huge difference. HBS persons Are motivated solely by the desire to make their brain sex and body sex agree and usually obtain surgery (SAS) to make that happen. The clothes are secondary and just part of the territory not the main motivation. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexual gratification, feel of the clothes or fantasy like it does for many crossdresser or transgenderists.

Crossdressers merely like the feel of the clothing and it is often a turn on. A transgenderist (shemale) is interested in growing breasts, obtaining hormones and may have facial feminization and live as a woman. Their motivation is sexual fantasy, driven by the idea of being changed into a woman or a partial one. Ann Lawrence describes this as autogynephilia which itself is a controversial subject in our community. They rarely get SAS. They often refer to themselves as Transsexual or non-ops. They are neither. Does this make the Crossdresser a bad person? Of course it doesn't. It's merely a method of feminine expression. Is a Transgenderist a bad person? No, of course not they are choosing a life style that fits them. Both though are life altering and will affect your life. Therapy is recommended before anyone starts re-creating themselves. In order to survive people do what they have to do.

One of our jobs here besides our transgender suicide prevention is to help people not to make drastic mistakes. Both sex drive and stigma can cause confusion. It's not every Transgender person who knows what and who they are. Sometimes people think they are Transsexual and they may not be. Why does that matter? Consider this, the present rate of MTF Transsexuals who cannot achieve orgasm after genital surgery is 30%. Think about that. Those that are sex or fantasy driven may not have the means to gratify themselves again. That would be a disaster for them. To a person with HBS or the transsexual that wouldn't matter. We did a post op study here long ago. Those who fit the post-op Transgenderist group had a dissatisfaction rate of 35%. Those who identified as Transsexual and were affirmed only had a 6% dissatisfaction rate.

That's why we recommend therapy here for everyone including Transsexuals (HBS). The OFFICIAL medically acceptd SOC by Wpath (HBIGDA) is version 6 and they recommend it too. What can it hurt? Certainly before one starts re-arranging oneself they need to be sure.

Meanwhile Laura;s PLayground will support all of you no matter what group you belong to or what your motivation may be. You will not be put down for being yourselves. We are a support site for all groups includin Transsexuals (HBS). For those who aren't sure where they belong just consider yourself transgendered. There's nothing wrong with that. Meanwhile let;s keep talking and we will figure it out together.

Laura

[pennyjane]

my feelings exactly, laura, thank you. i know people who claim to be hbs. you can tell they aren't and you want to explain to them how you know that, but so often their ears are closed, you are incroaching on the fantasy and they don't like that. i meet people who are so obsessed with looking like a girl that they can't destinguish that from being a girl. i say, "i know i look like a girl, i know this because i look like me.....and i am a girl." it really doesn't matter at all to my gender identity how i might look, i'll always look like a girl because i am one.

that doesn't remove me from wanting to look like a nice looking girl. i do. i want to look as attractive as i can but there is no look i need to achieve for validation. i think that's a good clue to use in diagnosis. i know people who insist they are hbs and yet won't present themselves enfemme until they have achieved a certain look. the look is more important to them then the reality. that suggests another motivation to me. these are people who want to present an image of themselves, not themselves. i know this sounds muddled, the explanation is so subtle i often confuse myself with it. the motivations for presenting enfemme are as diverse as are people. i think the big problem we have is subjecting ourselves to a hierarchy. we tend to think that one motivation is more evolved, more moral or more respectable then another. i don't think that's true. i see each motivation as a valid reason for expression. if we could all get on that page i think we'd have a lot less difficulty understanding each other and run much less risk of treating the wrong symptoms.

i think you are right laura. i knew i was a girl from the time i learned there was a difference between boys and girls. i thought people were a little nuts by calling me a boy. as soon as i learned that boys have boy thing' and girls don't i was ready to part with mine. that's when the confusion began i guess. i was taught that boys have boy thing' and girls don't...so why did i have one? i guess i first thought that getting rid of it would fix that. people would stop calling me a boy and making me act like a boy, be with boys, dress like a boy and get mad at me when i didn't act like a boy. of course it's very simplistc, i was only about two when i first came to this awareness and five when i made my first attempt at removing my boy thing. i didn't know what girls had, it never came up. all i was taught was that my boy thing was what kept everyone thinking i was a boy, so i figured by just cutting it off and throwing it away all be well. then they'd all know i was a girl and let me be. i learned that trying to fix this misperception made people very, very mad! my family went off the deep end on me for trying. i wish times had been different, i wish there had been the insight and information available at the time that there is now, but there wasn't. my parents weren't bad people, they weren't mean or bigoted. they were as ignornant as the times and they were very worried about me. if they'd have known then what i know now, and the technology had been in place i would have lived a much different life. but that's not the way it was. anyway, all this is about motivation. people like me all tell similar stories. we knew these things before we knew anything else. gender is just so fundamental to who we are we have to get a grip on it early, if we don't.....dysphoria will follow us until we do. people like me don't see some aspects of themselves as masculine or feminine, we see oursleves as one gender, any characteristics of the other are just normal things that happen in a gender, they don't suggest anything else.

that's me. it neither legitimizes nor delegitimizes anyone else. who i am has no bearing on the transgendered or the crossdresser. i am no better, no worse...just different. hbs could disappear from the earth tomorrow and it would have no bearing on the transgenderist or the crossdresser, they would remain just as they are. we are not dependent on the other for our validation, we are unique and beautiful in our own ways. just a little of my religion, just my religion, God made us each in HIS image, not the image of one another. lotsa love and hope, pj

[Conrí]

Laura, on Jul 11 2007, 10:15 PM, said:

Crossdressers merely like the feel of the clothing and it is often a turn on. A transgenderist (shemale) is interested in growing breasts, obtaining hormones and may have facial feminization and live as a woman. Their motivation is sexual fantasy, driven by the idea of being changed into a woman or a partial one. Ann Lawrence describes this as autogynephilia which itself is a controversial subject in our community. They rarely get SAS. They often refer to themselves as Transsexual or non-ops. They are neither.

I must object to your definitions here. Transgenderist is a synonym for the original definition of the word transgender (Warren J. Blumenfeld). People use the word transgenderist to avoid the problem of being seen as identifing as an umbrella term. A transgenderist is not necessarily someone who is motivated by a sexual fantasy.

Many crossdressers do not crossdress because it is a sexual turn-on. The term crossdresser was coined to specifically describe someone who crossdresses without any fetishistic intentions. Today, the word transvestite is typically used to describe someone who crossdresses for sexual pleasure while crossdresser describes someone who crossdresses for other reasons.

~Mani

[pennyjane]

hi mani, how nice to meet you. here we see the problem of language. i think i agree with you in some ways. i do belive there are different motivations for the crossdressing behavior. but crossdressing is a behavior, not an entity. i don't think you can say you are a crossdresser, i think it more accurate to say that you crossdress. before 18 mar 2004 i crossdressed. that is i dressed in male clothing. my motivation was simply to meet societal standards. i have since ceased that behavior. i think we can define crossdressing as how it sounds. wearing the clothing of the opposite gender regardless of motivation. so one who is anatomically male and has a female brainsex and wears women's clothing is not crossdressing, she is wearing the apparel appropriate for her gender.

language is dynamic. we are in a very dynamic stage of language in gender and sexual orientation matters. transgender, as you suggest, has come to define any variance in gender identity or expression. it's that way whether we like it or not. it's that way because so many with so many differences define themselves with that word. it has been so conveluded as to really have no meaning anymore. it could mean many different things to different people. these days if you tell someone you are transgendered you really tell them nothing. it could mean anything.

i think what laura is doing is trying to get us all on the same page. to get together without judgement and accept a language, any language would do, but one we can all just agree on for the sake of conversation and communication. since she is the leader and creator of our little group here i will choose to follow her lead. what the word is doesn't matter to me, as long as it communicates an idea that is understood by those we are trying to communicate with.

laura, why don't you make us up a little dictionary and post it somewhere prominent for all to see. just say these are the words and what they mean for discussion in this group. then we can discuss things with more understanding and we can change, or add words as we move along. i think an agreed upon language would be condusive to more growth and understanding for us all and we really need someplace to start. after that i think we can talk about ideas and change language by consensus after a full airing of what we mean. just my opinion, but what do i know? i'm just a girl. lotsa love and hope. pj

[Jackie]

Very interesting thread. TS, HBS, CD, TG. Those of us who use these terms seem to know what they all mean. We do have our own interpretation of what they mean for us, and I think that interpretation is where the distinctions get a little distorted. We add to that a large helping of the professional fields of psychiatry and medical care. Double the amount for politics and equal amounts of sociatal pressure and phobia.Mix that all up in the pot and pour it out to see what we have... a big gloppy mess.

Penny has related, IMHO, that she knows what she is. I think most of us, as we progress on this path of discovery get to where she is. But when we take a helping of the goo from that mess, I feel the lines get crossed and the circuits fry. With the stigma and dogma of society, we are hounded into a box of sorts. Coralled into being something that can be labelled, catalogged, studied, and treated. Symptomology ends up becoming the driving force, the "science."

I don't feel that the human condition can be 'sciencfied." For instance, take a look at a simple example from the medical branch. You get tested and have X potassium, Y and Z electrolytes. Mr. Doctor, with his years of training and experience says, "OK Ms. Smith, you have XYZ, caused by ZYX illness. Take these meds and here's a shot and come see me in two weeks and all will be good..." Smith does as she has been directed but Lo and Behold, she gets worse. Goes back to Mr. Doc, who scratched his head and prescribes another regime of treatment... yada yada yada. The one thing the Doc forgot and what the professional care community forgets all to often is the each and every one of us are different.

Medicine works on the rule of averages. 85% of patients with ZYX are cured with "" meds. That doesn't mean that Smith, nor I fit into that equation. And to get back to the discussion, I feel that we as transgenderists (using the umbrella definition) don't fit into any of the boxes that we have been given labels for. There are way too many factors and facets to the human condition to make a box that will hold even a fair percentage of any one group of us. And if you try to water down the label, it might as well fall off because when we do that we lose the core focus on the futile exercise anyway.

In a nutshell, I am disphoric about being a genetic male and have been all my life. I have survived this long in a roller coaster ride of depression, suicide, euphoria, .... and the list goes on. The best I have felt internally is when finally I stepped out of my mind, thinking I was looking at my life and what I wanted to do now... and all of a sudden I wasn't there. I was looking at a lie that I had created to be the male that my genitic shell presented. What label do you want to put onto this realization? HBS, TS, it doesn't really matter to me. Unfortunatly I have to take on this label and present my lie and self deception to some geek so I can then be given the treatment I require to feel whole for the first time ever...

Sorry for the negativity here. It just galls me to try to put myself into a box now that I am finally out of one that I built myself for over 40 years. Am I transgendered, yes. Am I transsexual, by definition Yes. but if I am found to have the inability to undergo the physical transformation to what I know I am, wher do I end up? In another box. :angry:

Sorry to digress a bit there but I hope a made a point somewhere and added to the thread.

Thanks,
Jackie

[pennyjane]

well, jackie...i guess we can just throw up our hands and do nothing. dr's and psych professionals are just like the rest of us, demeaning them, in a nutshell, is not productive. they are trying to do what they can about what, yup, they know very little. we have to defferentiate ourselves. we aren't bears, we are humans. there is a difference in how we function and how we relate. is defining yourself as human and not bear putting yourself in a box? ok, now we are down to degrees. that's a mess, yes. but it is one that can be cleaned up. not made perfect, but cleaned up. we don't have to solve the problems of the whole world to make a difference with some problems. "i am just what i am, whatever word you put on it is labeling and therefore inaccurate" doesn't help. you're right about playing the percentages. labeling helps the medical profession make the best diagnosis, and prescribe the treatment most likely to succeed. to hold them to perfection is counter-productive. they aren't any more perfect then the rest of us, they just do the best they can. they have to try things, and sometimes those things don't work. my doc and i went through about a year of testing out meds to treat my hypertension. if i'd just thrown up my hands and said he didn't know what he was talking about after the first effort, or even the second or third failed, i would not be managing my hypertension right now. he's no genius and he doesn't know everything, but he does know some things that have been very helpful in my treatment.

as laura said, we don't always like labels, and boxes and such. but sometimes they are very helpful if you don't view it as restricive, locked boxes. labels can help us explore, to fit in....don't we all really want to fit in where we belong? to live a defined existence you have to live in boxes, but you don't have to lock yourself away in them, you can keep moving around from box to box until you find one that makes you feel at home, then just move in. so, i hope you'll give others a break sometimes, they aren't really all out to get you, to make your life more difficult, some really do just want to make it better. i'd rather help them then belittle their efforts. lotsa love and hope, pj

[Conrí]

pennyjane, on Jul 12 2007, 09:41 AM, said:

i think what laura is doing is trying to get us all on the same page. to get together without judgement and accept a language, any language would do, but one we can all just agree on for the sake of conversation and communication. since she is the leader and creator of our little group here i will choose to follow her lead. what the word is doesn't matter to me, as long as it communicates an idea that is understood by those we are trying to communicate with.

laura, why don't you make us up a little dictionary and post it somewhere prominent for all to see. just say these are the words and what they mean for discussion in this group. then we can discuss things with more understanding and we can change, or add words as we move along. i think an agreed upon language would be condusive to more growth and understanding for us all and we really need someplace to start. after that i think we can talk about ideas and change language by consensus after a full airing of what we mean. just my opinion, but what do i know? i'm just a girl. lotsa love and hope. pj

Having a agreed upon set of definitions would be very good, with agreed upon being the key words here.

~Mani

[Sophie Jean]

I especially like Penny's remark about moving from box to box. But a lot of the confusion may come from the fact that we are trying to segregate boxes that may actually overlap. I mean if the boxes had clear boundaries, then I would be able to figure out which one I belonged to pretty easily, right.'

But the HBSOC attest to the fact that maybe one doesn't know which box to move into; it is only by trying on each box, do we know if it fits. That's kind of the situation I find myself in.

For years, I tried to deny those attributes and behaviors that separated me from the other boys. Even at the age of 8, I could remember practically nothing of my life, with only snippets here and there. I was always treated differently, but not really as a girl. My response was to internalize those differences as not feminine, didn't know what that meant, but more intelligent or adaptive than the norm. Over time, as I tried to fit in with the group society dictated I should, I began to ignore aspects of myself that made me less "normal," until I began to feel a big hole in my identity. For 25 more years, I tried to fill in this hole from the outside, while denying my feministic urges as a perversion, and seriously considered ending it all. I have only recently over the past few months refilled that hole by accepting my whole self with the aid of a gender therapist.

So now I am left moving from box to box, feeling more comfortable with myself as I move forward, but unwilling to lose my spouse by radically altering my situation. What I crave, and what my spouse accepts are two different things. What I'm willing to accept as a compromise is obviously less.

My point is that we are all individuals on the gender spectrum. Yes, those who suffer from severe genital dysphoria need accurate assessment and rapid treatment. For the rest of us, being one in 30,000 leaves a very small sample size for empirical analysis, especially considering those who are still in denial. And finally, the boxes need some psychological boundaries with regards to need and acceptance.

Hopefully, I didn't just muddle the issue too much.

[Laura]

Mani, on Jul 12 2007, 07:47 AM, said:

I must object to your definitions here. Transgenderist is a synonym for the original definition of the word transgender (Warren J. Blumenfeld). People use the word transgenderist to avoid the problem of being seen as identifing as an umbrella term. A transgenderist is not necessarily someone who is motivated by a sexual fantasy.

Gianna Israel was a therapist who provided counseling services to the transgender community. I read that she died last year but her work lives on. She wrote an article on Transgenderists called "Transgenderists: When Self-Identification Challenges Transgender Stereotypes" http://www.firelily....genderists.html . I do not know if she coined the term herself or just expanded on it.

One of my complaints about HBS is their descriptions of TG's in some very nasty sexual terms I won't mention here. I don't think that is necessary or helpful to make ones point. I do agree that the differences between groups and their different motivations need to be brought to light because Treatments for each group are not the same. A crossdresser getting SAS would be a disaster for instance. Until recently you couldn't talk about sexual issues without being called a pervert even though the whole world was doing it. While we may know what we are we are fortunate as not all Transgenders do. Some are confused and think they are transsexual when they may not be. Only a gender therapist can help point that out. I certainly don't mean to suggest that all Crossdressers or Transgenderists are motivated the same way. That would be foolish. Sexual motives though do play a part with many as any gender therapist can tell you. Motives are important when making life altering decisions even if one doesn't know for sure what that motive is.

I am merely trying to show that we can have an interesting discussion without it becoming a name calling festival like I see in certain groups. No one has the right to judge others even if it's to prove a point like HBS. We are a Transgender support site so it certainly isn't in our interests to put down any group. There are no judgments here.
:)
Laura